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	<title>Comments on: Epic: In for a penny, in for a pound?</title>
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	<link>http://blog.fixkp.org/2007/11/16/epic-in-for-a-penny-in-for-a-pound/511</link>
	<description>FixKP: the unofficial Kaiser Permanente blog at blog.fixkp.org</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Sun, 23 Dec 2007 04:28:33 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: menoalittle</title>
		<link>http://blog.fixkp.org/2007/11/16/epic-in-for-a-penny-in-for-a-pound/511/comment-page-1#comment-5758</link>
		<dc:creator>menoalittle</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Nov 2007 06:07:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.fixkp.org/2007/11/16/epic-in-for-a-penny-in-for-a-pound/511#comment-5758</guid>
		<description>Justen,

You are providing important  information and opinion...all US Congresspeople should read it as they, and our President,  have declared that there is not to be health information technology regulation...no matter how many deaths are caused by  and dollars wasted on these flawed and ill conceived CPOE devices. S. Silverstein&#039;s site should be required reading for the lawmakers.  No one who has invested millions of dollars in dysfunctional CPOE devices  is willing to admit their mistakes and those who criticize may find themselves the object of retaliation, as did Justen. Hospital administrators and CPOE manufacturer CEO&#039;s with their paid booth bunnies will always blame human error and not the EHR device for an EHR/CPOE related death.   The fact remains that these EHR and CPOE devices have not been subject to scientific scrutiny and their use is not based on sound (any?) scientific principles, and thus, all are experimental and the patients are guinea pigs.  This is nothing but a costly experiment on patients with big bucks for CPOE manufacturers and hospital administrators (?kickbacks).

What can be done?  Complain to the HHS OHRP (office of human research protection), and report all deaths, patient injury, and near misses  related to CPOE  and EHR dysfunction to the FDA, the Joint Commission, and your state&#039;s health department patient safety division.

Best regards and go Justen,

Menoalittle</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Justen,</p>
<p>You are providing important  information and opinion&#8230;all US Congresspeople should read it as they, and our President,  have declared that there is not to be health information technology regulation&#8230;no matter how many deaths are caused by  and dollars wasted on these flawed and ill conceived CPOE devices. S. Silverstein&#8217;s site should be required reading for the lawmakers.  No one who has invested millions of dollars in dysfunctional CPOE devices  is willing to admit their mistakes and those who criticize may find themselves the object of retaliation, as did Justen. Hospital administrators and CPOE manufacturer CEO&#8217;s with their paid booth bunnies will always blame human error and not the EHR device for an EHR/CPOE related death.   The fact remains that these EHR and CPOE devices have not been subject to scientific scrutiny and their use is not based on sound (any?) scientific principles, and thus, all are experimental and the patients are guinea pigs.  This is nothing but a costly experiment on patients with big bucks for CPOE manufacturers and hospital administrators (?kickbacks).</p>
<p>What can be done?  Complain to the HHS OHRP (office of human research protection), and report all deaths, patient injury, and near misses  related to CPOE  and EHR dysfunction to the FDA, the Joint Commission, and your state&#8217;s health department patient safety division.</p>
<p>Best regards and go Justen,</p>
<p>Menoalittle</p>
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		<title>By: S Silverstein</title>
		<link>http://blog.fixkp.org/2007/11/16/epic-in-for-a-penny-in-for-a-pound/511/comment-page-1#comment-5751</link>
		<dc:creator>S Silverstein</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Nov 2007 16:59:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.fixkp.org/2007/11/16/epic-in-for-a-penny-in-for-a-pound/511#comment-5751</guid>
		<description>Justen wrote:

&quot;I believe there will be fleeting glimpses of success in this round. But, largely, we’ll eventually recognize this “phase” was overhyped and vastly under delivered. The big installs, like Kaiser Permanente and Sutter Health, will eventually come in so massively over budget that every MD and healthcare CEO will have such a nasty taste in their mouth that getting money for HcIT will be damned near impossible&lt;/i&gt;.&quot;

I&#039;ll go a step further.

I believe this phase will be seen as a time when the Management Information Systems Religion is seen as inadequate in complex environments such as clinical medicine, where its practitioners are simply out of their league.  This is largely due to advancements in biomedical information science and applications, requiring cross-disciplinary expertise to manage effectively.

Difficulties in &quot;this phase&quot; may cause this important question to finally be asked:

&quot;What qualifies most hospital CIO&#039;s and IT workers to put their feet in the door of actual clinical medicine interactions, and have authority over same?&quot;

More on this at my site http://www.ischool.drexel.edu/faculty/ssilverstein/medinfo.htm .</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Justen wrote:</p>
<p>&#8220;I believe there will be fleeting glimpses of success in this round. But, largely, we’ll eventually recognize this “phase” was overhyped and vastly under delivered. The big installs, like Kaiser Permanente and Sutter Health, will eventually come in so massively over budget that every MD and healthcare CEO will have such a nasty taste in their mouth that getting money for HcIT will be damned near impossible.&#8221;</p>
<p>I&#8217;ll go a step further.</p>
<p>I believe this phase will be seen as a time when the Management Information Systems Religion is seen as inadequate in complex environments such as clinical medicine, where its practitioners are simply out of their league.  This is largely due to advancements in biomedical information science and applications, requiring cross-disciplinary expertise to manage effectively.</p>
<p>Difficulties in &#8220;this phase&#8221; may cause this important question to finally be asked:</p>
<p>&#8220;What qualifies most hospital CIO&#8217;s and IT workers to put their feet in the door of actual clinical medicine interactions, and have authority over same?&#8221;</p>
<p>More on this at my site <a href="http://www.ischool.drexel.edu/faculty/ssilverstein/medinfo.htm" rel="nofollow">http://www.ischool.drexel.edu/faculty/ssilverstein/medinfo.htm</a> .</p>
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		<title>By: S Silverstein</title>
		<link>http://blog.fixkp.org/2007/11/16/epic-in-for-a-penny-in-for-a-pound/511/comment-page-1#comment-5752</link>
		<dc:creator>S Silverstein</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Nov 2007 16:52:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.fixkp.org/2007/11/16/epic-in-for-a-penny-in-for-a-pound/511#comment-5752</guid>
		<description>Is there a site where useful screen shots of Epic&#039;s current EHR products can be viewed, in enough detail and in enough quantity to get a sense of the overall &quot;feel&quot; of the application?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Is there a site where useful screen shots of Epic&#8217;s current EHR products can be viewed, in enough detail and in enough quantity to get a sense of the overall &#8220;feel&#8221; of the application?</p>
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		<title>By: Justen Deal</title>
		<link>http://blog.fixkp.org/2007/11/16/epic-in-for-a-penny-in-for-a-pound/511/comment-page-1#comment-5756</link>
		<dc:creator>Justen Deal</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 17 Nov 2007 21:36:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.fixkp.org/2007/11/16/epic-in-for-a-penny-in-for-a-pound/511#comment-5756</guid>
		<description>I actually wrote:

&quot;Which, I think, means this &lt;b&gt;phase&lt;/b&gt; of electronic medical record deployments in the United States will &lt;i&gt;largely&lt;/i&gt; be eventually written off as a failure.&quot;

I believe there will be &lt;i&gt;fleeting&lt;/i&gt; glimpses of success in this round.  But, largely, we&#039;ll eventually recognize this &quot;phase&quot; was overhyped and vastly under delivered.  The big installs, like Kaiser Permanente and Sutter Health, will eventually come in so massively over budget that every MD and healthcare CEO will have such a nasty taste in their mouth that getting money for HcIT will be damned near impossible.

Phase one: money comes very easy, very painful lessons learned, rudimentary groundwork laid.

Phase two: money is much harder to come by, painful lessons learned turn into decent implementation plans, and we see some smart folks come out with strong diagnosis support and error prevention intelligence software.

As I said, though, time will tell.

justen</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I actually wrote:</p>
<p>&#8220;Which, I think, means this <b>phase</b> of electronic medical record deployments in the United States will <i>largely</i> be eventually written off as a failure.&#8221;</p>
<p>I believe there will be <i>fleeting</i> glimpses of success in this round.  But, largely, we&#8217;ll eventually recognize this &#8220;phase&#8221; was overhyped and vastly under delivered.  The big installs, like Kaiser Permanente and Sutter Health, will eventually come in so massively over budget that every MD and healthcare CEO will have such a nasty taste in their mouth that getting money for HcIT will be damned near impossible.</p>
<p>Phase one: money comes very easy, very painful lessons learned, rudimentary groundwork laid.</p>
<p>Phase two: money is much harder to come by, painful lessons learned turn into decent implementation plans, and we see some smart folks come out with strong diagnosis support and error prevention intelligence software.</p>
<p>As I said, though, time will tell.</p>
<p>justen</p>
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		<title>By: Carrie S.</title>
		<link>http://blog.fixkp.org/2007/11/16/epic-in-for-a-penny-in-for-a-pound/511/comment-page-1#comment-5757</link>
		<dc:creator>Carrie S.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 17 Nov 2007 20:07:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.fixkp.org/2007/11/16/epic-in-for-a-penny-in-for-a-pound/511#comment-5757</guid>
		<description>Jon has a point. Kaiser and Sutter are giving Epic and EMRs a bad name just because they&#039;re big and slow.

Change this big takes time -- especially in health care.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jon has a point. Kaiser and Sutter are giving Epic and EMRs a bad name just because they&#8217;re big and slow.</p>
<p>Change this big takes time &#8212; especially in health care.</p>
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		<title>By: Jon</title>
		<link>http://blog.fixkp.org/2007/11/16/epic-in-for-a-penny-in-for-a-pound/511/comment-page-1#comment-5753</link>
		<dc:creator>Jon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 17 Nov 2007 19:13:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.fixkp.org/2007/11/16/epic-in-for-a-penny-in-for-a-pound/511#comment-5753</guid>
		<description>You think all of the current EMR rollouts are going to be failures? UPMC had some rough going but it looks like their heads are above water now.  Evanston Northwestern gets heaps of praise.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You think all of the current EMR rollouts are going to be failures? UPMC had some rough going but it looks like their heads are above water now.  Evanston Northwestern gets heaps of praise.</p>
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		<title>By: Paul S.</title>
		<link>http://blog.fixkp.org/2007/11/16/epic-in-for-a-penny-in-for-a-pound/511/comment-page-1#comment-5755</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul S.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 17 Nov 2007 01:12:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.fixkp.org/2007/11/16/epic-in-for-a-penny-in-for-a-pound/511#comment-5755</guid>
		<description>Very interesting. Sutter and Kaiser have a long relationship. Epic&#039;s good and all but I wonder if Sutter was thinking longer term? Sutter could turn the Kaiser spigot back on in Nor Cal whenever they want. Could an interoperable EMR help grease the wheels?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Very interesting. Sutter and Kaiser have a long relationship. Epic&#8217;s good and all but I wonder if Sutter was thinking longer term? Sutter could turn the Kaiser spigot back on in Nor Cal whenever they want. Could an interoperable EMR help grease the wheels?</p>
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		<title>By: kpthrive</title>
		<link>http://blog.fixkp.org/2007/11/16/epic-in-for-a-penny-in-for-a-pound/511/comment-page-1#comment-5754</link>
		<dc:creator>kpthrive</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Nov 2007 19:19:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.fixkp.org/2007/11/16/epic-in-for-a-penny-in-for-a-pound/511#comment-5754</guid>
		<description>This explains why Sutter has been hiring ex Kaiser HealthConnect employees.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This explains why Sutter has been hiring ex Kaiser HealthConnect employees.</p>
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